Original Sin

[Sissy]

Let’s talk.

Is one born guilty of sin, or does one become guilty of sin when he commits a sin?

[Invisible_2_no1]

It would appear here, that one is not born WITH sin. The Jews believed sickness and deformaties were results of sin.

John 9:2-3
And his disciples asked him, saying,
Teacher, who did sin,
this man,
or his parents,
that he was born blind?
Jesus answered,
Neither has this man sinned,
nor his parents:
but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

The wages of sin is death, but what about this?

There's Lazarus when the sisters sent word to Jesus before their brother had died.

John 11:3-4
Therefore his sisters sent unto him,
saying,
Lord,
behold,
he whom you love is sick.
When Jesus heard that, he said,
This sickness is not unto death,
but for the glory of God,
that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

You have Jacob, whom God loved, and Esau whom God hated.

You could say that God, in His infinite foreknowledge KNEW before the children were born, which one would forsake Him (or sin).

Was Esau born into sin? Was Cain?

I think they were born innocent of sin, and made the choice TO sin.

But all of us are going to sin, because we are in this world.

Loaded question.

I just talked myself in circles.



Then you have 1John chapter 3.

What do you think, Sissy?

[Sissy]

I'm thinking along the same lines.

I mainly have children in mind.

A 2-day-old baby cannot make a conscience decision to sin.
In fact, I don’t see how a 2-day-old baby CAN sin.

This starts to get into some hairy areas.

If we say it is faith alone that saves, then do we expect a 2-day-old baby to have faith?
How could they?

If we say that one must accept Christ to be saved, then how does a 2-day-old baby do that?

If we say you must be born again, how does a 2-day-old baby do that?

I think the logical answer is that a 2-day-old baby does not need to be saved, (i.e. sins covered through faith in the blood of Christ).

However, babies do need the resurrection of Christ. But the resurrection happens to everyone whether they had faith or not (even the wicked are resurrected).


If this can be viewed as truth, then we will have to rethink this verse:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

“all” cannot possibly mean “all” who ever lived.

One reason is because Jesus lived and did not sin.
So the “all” does not have to include babies that have not sinned either.

Just one of those cases where a word may not necessarily be the intent that we use in today’s vocabulary.

[Dan Bittleston]

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

“all” cannot possibly mean “all” who ever lived.

I believe that Paul was referring to "all that have come to the knowledge of right and wrong". This does not happen at the same time to all people. Some learn earlier than others.

I believe that when we are fleshly born, that we are in "complete compliance with God's will". We are completely innocent; fully reliant upon others for our needs to be taken care of and have "faith" that this will be accomplished.

Some autistic people claim to "see angels" and "talk with angels". Something that as we "normal" people seem to lose along the way. Some claim that small children have related happenings where they "saw angels, talked with angels and were protected by angels". I will not deny that this does not happen, but I will say that I believe it is because of their faith and innocence that they are capable of doing this.

Jesus said in
Mt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

I believe that Jesus was referring to the innocence and faith of little chileren.

Just some of my thoughts on this subject.

YBIC
Dan Bittleston

[Invisible_2_no1]

Dan beat me to the quote in Matthew 18.

I know God IS love.

God loves His children.

If we are all made in the image of God, our children (His really!) are covered by the blood.

If the child is innocent of sin, (a 2 day old baby your example) that child in the image of God is His already. No faith necessary, I would say. An innocent is under the protection of the Lord.

I comfort myself this when I hear the horrific stories in the news about what happens to children.


So, if this applies to ALL children, all babies, how does it apply to those living (adults) without any knowledge or exposure to the Bible? (say an Aboriginee tribe in the Indies?)

[Dan Bittleston]

So, if this applies to ALL children, all babies, how does it apply to those living (adults) without any knowledge or exposure to the Bible? (say an Aboriginee tribe in the Indies?)

I rather tend to believe that is what Paul might have been addressing here:

Ro 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it unto them.
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and deity; so that they are without excuse:
Ro 1:21 Because, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Ro 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Ro 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
Ro 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
Ro 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Again, remember that I also believe that for people to be able to do what Paul is suggesting, that they have to "have come to the knowledge of right and wrong".

I believe that Paul is suggesting that "nature" God's creation, as we know it, will bear witness of His power and majesty.

YBIC
Dan Bittleston