Eternal Security

[Sissy]

Or sometimes called OSAS (once saved, always saved).

I'll start with this statement ...

I believe that once you are eternally saved you will always be eternally saved.
The starting question would be ....
WHEN are you eternally saved?

This could all depend on your definition of "eternally saved".
In my opinion there is a difference between the "promise" and actually gaining the benefit of that promise.
For instance, there was a promise of a sacrifice for our sins; but not everyone benifited just because there was a promise made.

So, if we separate the promise of eternal security from actually gaining eternal security, it might make the discussion a bit easier to follow.


In my opinion, you don't become eternally saved until the time of the judgement. Your verdict is cast at the judgement. After that, you cannot be retried. It is over, and your eternal state is secured.

[Dan Bittleston]

Here are some my understandings and beliefs on this issue.

What you quoted from John 17 was given by Jesus to his apostles, 11 and possibly 12 it is not said directly, but this is the prayer Jesus gave for his followers on the Mount of Olives prior to Him going to Gethsemane. (Mat. 26:30; 26:36) As you will note, Jesus was talking in the PRESENT tense, not the past nor the future, but the PRESENT.

As to "why do you think that Jesus' prayer for all believers in John 17 was not answered by the Father?" Remember, Jesus was talking in the PRESENT TENSE. If all the followers of Jesus were to be removed from the earth at that time, there would not have been anybody to preach the gospel to the remainder of the world. There would have been no outpouring of the Holy Spirit (Ghost) upon His followers. (Acts 2:4) Had this not happened, the world would not have heard of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (Acts 2:4-12) After all those present had heard Peter and the others speaking to them in their native language of the "wonderful works of God", they departed into their own countries and spread the Word among their fellow countrymen. Thus fulfilling the "great commission" Jesus gave in Mat 28:19-20. (Remember those who were present in Acts 2:4-12 were representatives of the then "known world". Therefore the "great commission" was actually fulfilled at that time.)

I agree that Jesus DID NOT LOSE any of the chosen disciples, except one, (John 17:12) and that is even debateable, (Mat. 27:3-5 Then Judas, who had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see you to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.), but again Jesus was speaking in the PRESENT TENSE. Jesus KEPT them in His company while He was here on earth. After His crucifixion, His disciples scattered, as prophesied in Zech. 13:7. Most probably back to their own cities and again engaged in work they had done before being "called" by Jesus to become His followers.

Many people today start out "on fire" for Jesus, but when challenged on their beliefs, they soon forget why they were so "on fire" and depart back into their own ways again. (Parable of the Sower) Back-sliding or apostatizing - VOLUNTARILY returning to their "old ways" and forgetting their first love - the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the salvation that it affords, "if you endure to the end". (Mat 24:13)

My personal belief is that you can definitely fall from grace (backslide) once you have been saved. Granted, it is not that you fall from grace (backslide) simply by unknowingly committing sin, but if you willfully commit sin, then I believe that you do fall from grace (backslide) until such time as you humbly and with a contrite heart, truly repent of your sins. By truly repenting, I mean that you promise to God, that with His help, you will not willfully sin again.

I agree that this is next to impossible in this human life, but we can give it a truly honest attempt to live more like Christ Jesus every step of the way during the remainder of this lifetime. When we stumble, we are to truly repent and ask for His forgiveness as many times as is necessary for us to remain in His grace. When you have a clear conscience, you can pretty well rest assured that you are in His grace. If you do not have a clear conscience, then you are not fully in His grace. If Jesus should return when you are not fully within His grace, I do not know the outcome, only God does.

When you knowingly continue to commit sin, you are defying Christ and what He died for. I believe that if we continue to do this, is grieving the Holy Spirit and to continue this sort of life will result in the Holy Spirit leaving you alone to wallow in your own willful ways.

Remember, we are choosing, during this lifetime, whether we will spend eternity in comfort or in torment. We are free to choose which pathway we want to follow, even when we are aware of the outcome of each pathway. The final judgment by God is what will determine where we finally spend eternity, but by us attempting to live our lives as Christ-like as possible during this lifetime, I believe it will be a plus factor in our favor at the final judgment.

Keep in mind that each of us deserve to go to hell, and what we are attempting to do is to show ourselves, to God, that we are truly repentant and humble and are asking for His mercy, when He passes judgment on us.

The apostle Paul, in writing to the Colossians, the Thessalonians and to Timothy, had this to say on this subject:

Col 1:23 If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

2Ti 3:14 But continue in the things which you have learned and have been assured of, knowing by whom you have learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Yours in Christ,
Dan Bittleston

[Dan Bittleston]

Sins Past

Ro 3:25 Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

My understanding of this passage, is that if we appear before God with a contrite heart, in humbleness and are truly sorry for our past sins and transgressions; and ask God for forgiveness for them that He will forgive them. Our past sins will not be held against us if we have truly repented of them.

I believe that it is necessary for us to repent for our sins and transgressions continually, because we are human beings and therefore are going to sin, no matter how great or small. Once we have truly repented for our sins, they become past sins.

Backslide taken from Easton's Bible Dictionary
to voluntarily draw back or apostatize in matters of religion (Act 21:21; 2Th 2:3; 1Ti 4:1). This may be either partial (Prov 14:14) or complete (Heb 6:4-6; Heb 10:38-39). The apostasy may be both doctrinal and moral.

A. Described as:
Turning from God - 1Kings 11:9
Turning to evil - Ps. 125:5
Turning to Satan - 1Tim. 5:15
Turning back to the world - 2Tim. 4:10
Tempting Christ - 1Cor. 10:9
Turning from first love - Rev. 2:4
Turning from the Gospel - Gal. 3:1-5

B. Prompted by:
Haughty spirit - Prov. 16:18
Spiritual blindness - 2Pet. 1:9; Rev. 3:17
Murmuring - Exod. 17:7
Lusting after evil - Psa. 106:14
Material things - Mark 4:18,19; 1Tim. 6:10
Prosperity - Deut. 8:11-14
Tribulation - Mat. 13:20,21

C. Examples of among believers:
Lot - Gen. 19:1-22
David - 2Sam. 11:1-5; Psa. 51:1-19
Peter - Mat. 26:69-75; Luke 22:31,32
Galatians - Gal. 1:6; Gal. 4:9-11
Corinthians - 1Cor. 5:1-13
Churches of Asia - 2Tim. 1:15; Rev. 2,3

John Gill's Exposition on the Entire Bible (1690-1771)
Joh 6:66 - From that time many of his disciples went back,.... Not any of the twelve apostles, for they are distinguished from these in the next verse; nor any of the seventy disciples, for their names were written in heaven, and could not apostatize totally and finally, as these did; but some of the multitude of the disciples, who followed Christ, heard him, and professed to believe in him, and were baptized in his name, but were not true disciples, only nominal ones: they had never heard and learned of the Father, otherwise they would have known what it was to come to Christ, as the Father's gift, and under the drawings of his grace; and would not have been offended at the words of our Lord, just now spoken by him, concerning that sort of coming to him: but from the time he spoke those words; "because of this word", as the Syriac, Arabic, and Persic versions render it; they withdrew themselves from his ministry, they dropped their profession of faith in him, and relinquished him as a Saviour and Redeemer: for finding that he would not be made king, nor set up for a temporal redeemer; and talking of himself as the bread of life, and of coming to him, in a sense they did not understand; they turned their backs on him; and as the words may be literally read, "returned to the things that were behind"; to the world, and to their old companions, to Satan and their own hearts lusts; like the dog to its vomit, and the swine to its wallowing in the mire: their true picture is drawn, in the parable of the unclean spirit going out of the man, and returning, Mat_12:43. And they returned to their quondam teachers, the Scribes and Pharisees, and to the law of works, and to seek for righteousness by it; setting up their own righteousness, and not submitting to the righteousness of Christ; and thus to look back and draw back, is a sad case indeed:

and walked no more with him; never returned to him or went with him from place to place as before: never more attended on his ministry, or had any intimacy and fellowship with him: and so it commonly is with apostates from the profession of Christ; they seldom if ever return, or are recovered; it is difficult, if not impossible, which is sometimes the case, to renew them again to repentance.

Apostasy taken from Nave's Topical Bible
Described Deu 13:13; Heb 3:12;
Deu 13:13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Caused by persecution
Mat 24:9; Mat 24:10; Luk 8:13;
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Caused by worldliness 2Ti 4:10;
2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

Guilt and punishment of Zep 1:4-6; Heb 10:25-31; Heb 10:39; 2Pe 2:17; 2Pe 2:20-22;
Zep 1:4 I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests;
Zep 1:5 And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham;
Zep 1:6 And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor inquired for him.
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest: to whom the mist of darkness is reserved forever.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Cautions against Heb 3:12; 2Pe 3:17;
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

Shall abound in the latter days Mat 24:12; 2Th 2:3; 1Ti 4:1-3;
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Compiled 07/12/04
Dan Bittleston

[Sissy]

Thanks Dan.

Apostacy is a good example of the fallacy of the OSAS doctine as it is commonly taught.
There can be no apostacy if you were not among the faithful to begin with.
It also blows a big hole in the usual excuse used by OSAS folks - "They were never really saved to begin with."

[Christbearer]

When I have more time I will give the Eternal Secruity defense. Paul spoke of your last sentence too and if they go back they were never one of us. Christ said that nothing could remove us from his hand, that includes us.

[Christbearer]

Here's a couple of articles to wet the appitite.

1. Classic Arminianism

• One must persevere in faith to be saved.

• True believers can lose their faith.

• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.

“The believer who loses his faith is damned.”



2. Antinomianism

• One need not persevere in faith to be saved.

• True believers can lose their faith.

• Those who lose their faith are saved, since they once believed.

“The believer who loses his faith is saved.”



3. Classic Calvinism

• One must persevere in faith to be saved.

• True believers cannot lose their faith, since it’s God’s gift.

• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.

• Those who “lose” their faith never had it to begin with.

• God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.

“The ‘believer’ who loses his faith never really had it—or at least it wasn’t in Jesus.”







Proponents of the first two approaches quote biblical references, but each must strain to explain away the other group's biblical data. How can an Arminian read Romans 8, then tell true believers that they may screw up and go to hell??? Then again, how can Charles Stanley read Hebrews 6 and 10 and tell unbelievers who once professed faith not to worry, that they will be saved??? Any true biblical teaching must “fit” with ALL the biblical data, without pitting one text against another and without having to explain away a single “jot or tittle” of God's inerrant Word. I believe that only the classical Calvinist model takes into account all of the biblical data.

Arminians are right when they say the Bible teaches that only those who persevere will be saved, and they’re right in accusing Antinomians of easy-believism and cheap grace. Antinomians (they wouldn’t use the term) are right in telling committed believers that they are secure in Christ and “once saved, always saved.” But both of these views are wrong is assuming that a true believer can lose his faith and fall away from Christ. Faith is “a gift of God—not by works, lest any man boast.” Paul was confident that, since Christ had begun a good work in believers, He would continue that work until completion (Phil. 1). John said that those who fell away were never really true Christians, since true believers don't leave the faith (1 John 2:19).



Scripture teaches that believers must persevere until the end, but also that believers will persevere until the end by God's grace. As the Westminster Assembly concluded, Christians might temporarily yield to Satan's temptations, even to excess, but like Peter when he denied Christ three times, God will still restore and preserve the faith of the Christian, a faith which God gave in the first place! Peter went on to be chief among the apostles! Two biblical principles must be held side-by-side:

1. You Must Persevere until the End: God's Requirement of His People

God does not merely command us to begin to believe for a time, and then fall away. He requires us to continue to believe until the end, living lives of repentance and covenant faithfulness. Granted, He does not ask for a perfect faith, but He does ask for a real faith, one that produces real, lasting change.

• Colossians 1:21-23

• 1 John 1:5-10; 3:3-6

• Hebrews 10:26-31

• Hebrews 12:1



2. You Will Persevere Until the End: God's Preservation of His People

We will persevere because God preserves us. God will keep us from falling—not one will be lost of all those who belong to the Son. True believers are not able to leave Christ, for Christ is at work within them.

• John 6:38-40

• John 10:28-29

• Romans 8:28-39

• Philippians 1:4-6

• Philippians 2:12-13

• 1 John 2:19

Source

[Christbearer]

PERSEVERANCE
GOD KEEPS HIS PEOPLE SAFE
by J.I. Packer

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. ROMANS 8:30

Let it first be said that in declaring the eternal security of God’s people it is clearer to speak of their preservation than, as is commonly done, of their perseverance. Perseverance means persistence under discouragement and contrary pressure. The assertion that believers persevere in faith and obedience despite everything is true, but the reason is that Jesus Christ through the Spirit persists in preserving them.

Scripture emphasizes this. John tells us that Jesus Christ, the Good Shepherd, is under promise to his Father (John 6:37-40) and to his sheep directly (John 10:28-29) to keep them so that they never perish. In his high-priestly prayer before his passion Jesus asked that those whom the Father had given him (John 17:2, 6, 9, 24) would be preserved to glory, and it is inconceivable that his prayer, which still continues (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25), will go unanswered.

Paul sees the sovereign plan of God for the salvation of his elect as a unitary whole, of which the glorifying of the justified is part (Rom. 8:29-30). On this basis he builds the triumphant peroration of Romans 8:31-39, in which he celebrates the present and future security of the saints in the almighty love of God. Elsewhere he rejoices in the certainty that God will complete the “good work” that he began in the lives of those Paul addresses (Phil. 1:6; cf. 1 Cor. 1:8-9; 1 Thess. 5:23-24; 2 Thess. 3:3; 2 Tim. 1:12; 4:18).


Reformed theology echoes this emphasis. The Westminster Confession declares, They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved. (XVII.1)
The doctrine declares that the regenerate are saved through persevering in faith and Christian living to the end (Heb. 3:6; 6:11; 10:35-39), and that it is God who keeps them persevering. That does not mean that all who ever professed conversion will be saved. False professions are made; short-term enthusiasts fall away (Matt. 13:20-22); many who say to Jesus, “Lord, Lord,” will not be acknowledged (Matt. 7:21-23). Only those who show themselves to be regenerate by pursuing heart-holiness and true neighbor-love as they pass through this world are entitled to believe themselves secure in Christ. Persevering in faith and penitence, not just in Christian formalism, is the path to glory. To suppose that believing in perseverance leads to careless living and arrogant presumption is a total misconception.

Sometimes the regenerate backslide and fall into gross sin. But in this they act out of character, do violence to their own new nature, and make themselves deeply miserable, so that eventually they seek and find restoration to righteousness. In retrospect, their lapse seems to them to have been madness. When regenerate believers act in character, they manifest a humble, grateful desire to please the God who saved them; and the knowledge that he is pledged to keep them safe forever simply increases this desire.

Source

and here is a whole boat load of articles

[Sissy]

Any true biblical teaching must “fit” with ALL the biblical data, without pitting one text against another and without having to explain away a single “jot or tittle” of God's inerrant Word.

That is sooooooooooooo true.

I believe that only the classical Calvinist model takes into account all of the biblical data.

Then let’s examine it.

Classic Calvinism

• One must persevere in faith to be saved.

• True believers cannot lose their faith, since it’s God’s gift.

• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.

• Those who “lose” their faith never had it to begin with.

• God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.

“The ‘believer’ who loses his faith never really had it—or at least it wasn’t in Jesus.”

The main fallacy I see in this theory is that it does exactly opposite of this:

Any true biblical teaching must “fit” with ALL the biblical data, without pitting one text against another and without having to explain away a single “jot or tittle” of God's inerrant Word.

It tries to pin everything on God, and nothing on man.
Although there are just as many variations of Calvinism as there are OSAS, general Calvinism teaches that salvation is not acquired through anything that man does but what God does through you.

If this were indeed true, then all mankind would be saved. For we are told that it is the desire of God that ALL mankind be saved.

• 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
  
  
  
• 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God certainly has the power to save any and all He wishes, but ALL mankind will not be saved.


Calvinism suggest that it was not YOU who seeks, believes, repents, etc.; but that it was God doing all those things for you.
If only God can control you coming to salvation, then the gospel is just another storybook. You may like the story, but no decision you make on your own will matter.
If this were true, then there would be no reason to preach the gospel because you have no control of being saved.

[Christbearer]

Exactly it is not us, nor never will be. Unless the Spirit calls man does not respond. We are totally unable to respond ourselves. Olny the elect will be saved and will be called, if we say we do it than salvation by works is a must.

God's soverignity is at work by choosing whom he will. Just because God's wishes doesn't mean that is his will.

[Sissy]

That would make it God's fault that some are not saved.
If it is not man's fault that he is saved, then what is the point of a judgement?

[Christbearer]

No, your still looking at is as if God does not have sovernity to do his own will. If God saved everyone that wouldn't show justice, if God saved no one his grace is not displayed. In only saving those he chooses from the beginning of the world that he display's his justice and grace.

We don't see it as Arminian Christians see it, people won't go to hell because they won't accept Christ. They'll go to hell because of thier total depravity and willness to do evil.

As for the Judgement, I assume your speaking eshcatological here and if so I am a Preterist and belive all that already took place and now we are living in the Kingdom period.

[Invisible_2_no1]

Not to side track the subject, can you define "living in the Kingdom period"...please?

[Christbearer]

Sure, the period after Christ returned when he rules with a rod of iron.

[Invisible_2_no1]

I'm confused,

So you think Christ is ruling right now?

And we are Past the trib, in our new bodies and are singing praises forever to our Father?

[Sissy]

Another sidetrack:

If eveything has already happened, then what was the mark of the beast?