Babel

[Sissy]

• Jeremiah 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

Notice the golden cup in the above verse.

There is only one other place in the bible where the phrase “golden cup” is used.

• Revelation 17
  4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
  5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Now back up a verse or two.

• 1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
  2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

What was the origin of Babylon? The tower of Babel.

[Sissy]

Genesis chapter 10 is sometimes called “The Table of Nations”

It is this chapter that list the descendants of the sons of Noah.
There are 70 names listed.

The end of the chapter states:

• Genesis 10:32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.

Here we have the beginning of separate groups called nations. There are 70 of them.

70 families - 70 nations.
They were not names of different races. They were names of different heads of families, for they are ALL descendants of Noah.


Something to notice in Genesis 10.
ISRAEL is not one of the nation (family) names.
Israel is not a “race” of people. Israel is a family name. The family of Jacob who was named Israel by God.
Therefore, Israel was in a sense “hidden” within these 70 nations (families).




The history of the gathering and scattering at Babel will repeat.

We have a smaller version of this scattering when Israel becomes a kingdom.
They were one, then scattered throughout the world because of idolatry.


The next chapter, Genesis 11, continues with these 70 families and introduces the tower of Babel.

[Sissy]

70 families - 70 nations.
There are no other people mentioned except these 70 families.
We continue to the next chapter (chapter 11),
it starts this way:

• Genesis 11
  1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
  2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
  3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar.
  4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
  5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men (H120) built.

H120 “men”
'âdâm
aw-dawm'
From H119; ruddy, that is, a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.): - X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.


Back up to Genesis 10.

• Genesis 10
  8 And Cush begot Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
  9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.
  10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

Compare to Genesis 11:

• 1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
  2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

There were 70 families. But only 1 kingdom. And it’s leader was Nimrod.

We see a similar formula with Jacob when his family goes to Egypt. 70 family members are mentioned. One of those 70 was Joseph who was “hidden” for awhile.
The 70 would leave Egypt and become one kingdom under one leader.
This kingdom would also be scattered.

This brings up another interesting thing about Genesis 10.

• Genesis 10
  8 And Cush begot Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
  9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.
  10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.
  11 Out of that land went forth Asshur, and built Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,
  12 And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city.

This might be similar to the kingdom of Israel being divided into two.

If Asshur is indeed a proper name, then it seems unlikely that Nimrod would have allowed anyone to abandon his kingdom to build a rival kingdom right next to him unless there was a rebellion of some sorts.

Asshur was the son of Shem (son of Noah) – one of the 70 familes/nations.
Nimrod was the grandson of Ham (son of Noah) - one of the 70 familes/nations.

[Sissy]

• Zechariah 5
  
  1 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.
  2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.

These measurements tell us that the roll/book is not rolled up and sealed anymore, but is laid opened.

As a point of interest, these measurements are the same as two other things mentioned in the bible.

1) the porch of Solomon’s temple
2) the holy place of the tabernacle

Could possibly be a reference to:

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The holy place of the tabernacle catches my interest the most because in the precious chapter (chapter 4) we see the vision of the candlestick, which was also in the holy place of the tabernacle.


The statement that the book is “flying” could mean it is now going forth to be accomplished.

• 3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse (H423) that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth (H1589) shall be cut off (H5352) as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth (H7650) shall be cut off as on that side according to it.

The English translation of this verse may be a little obscure to us and how we use the meaning of the words.
So I will list them here.

curse (H423)
From H422; an imprecation: - curse, cursing, execration, oath, swearing.

stealeth (H1589)
A primitive root; to thieve (literally or figuratively); by implication to deceive: - carry away, X indeed, secretly bring, steal (away), get by stealth.

cut off (H5352)
A primitive root; to be (or make) clean (literally or figuratively); by implication (in an adverse sense) to be bare, that is, extirpated: - acquit X at all, X altogether, be blameless, cleanse, (be) clear (-ing), cut off, be desolate, be free, be (hold) guiltless, be (hold) innocent, X by no means, be quit, be (leave) unpunished, X utterly, X wholly.

sweareth (H7650)
A primitive root; properly to be complete, but used only as a denominative from H7651; to seven oneself, that is, swear (as if by repeating a declaration seven times): - adjure, charge (by an oath, with an oath), feed to the full [by mistake for H7646], take an oath, X straitly, (cause to, make to) swear.





Two sides to the roll/book. This side, and that side.
Could be a reference to:

Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

[Stan]

Sissy,
I really like some of the things you presented so far.
The measurements you connected to the temple are excellent.
I see it!

I don't get this though...
It looks more like theology then scripture interpreting scripture.

Originally Posted by Sissy

Genesis chapter 10 is sometimes called “The Table of Nations”

It is? Where does the Holy Spirit call it that?
I've never heard that.

It is this chapter that list the descendants of the sons of Noah.
There are 70 names listed.

Don't overlook the divisions given of those names.

The end of the chapter states:

• Genesis 10:32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.

Here we have the beginning of separate groups called nations. There are 70 of them.

70 families - 70 nations.
They were not names of different races. They were names of different heads of families, for they are ALL descendants of Noah.

That is misleading.

The history of the gathering and scattering at Babel will repeat.

I absolutely agree.

Something to notice in Genesis 10.
ISRAEL is not one of the nation (family) names.
Israel is not a “race” of people. Israel is a family name. The family of Jacob who was named Israel by God.
Therefore, Israel was in a sense “hidden” within these 70 nations (families).


We have a smaller version of this scattering when Israel becomes a kingdom.
They were one, then scattered throughout the world because of idolatry.


The next chapter, Genesis 11, continues with these 70 families and introduces the tower of Babel.

Idolatry was not the only reason God scattered the Israelites.
He did it for their own good. So they would remain a nation of people before Him till the time of the end. Satan is still trying to disrupt the seed line of Jacob so God's word would become of no effect. But God promised to leave a remnant of that seed line so the world wouldn't be destroyed. It is those Israelites who are the light to the nations. They are a specific race of people as amplified by the Apostle Paul through the Holy Spirit in the book to 'the called that were in Rome'.


ISRAEL:

Luk 3:34
Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Terah, which was the son of Nahor,
Luk 3:35
Which was the son of Serug, which was the son of Reu, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36
Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Shem, which was the son of Noah, which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37
Which was the son of Methuselah, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Noah was perfect in his generation "pedigree". Look it up in the Hebrew. One of his sons remained that way for Gods law to remain in effect. Keep in mind, Satan is the one who is trying to make God's word of none effect. So what does that make anyone who will try and teach different? It could make them just ignorant, or it could be a wolf crept in, i.e. the sages of judaism. They know the ruddy complected white man are true Israel and they are doing their best to disrupt that seed line with the media and everything else that is available to them. Some actually know the real history of the migration of Israel.

Something to notice in Genesis 10.
ISRAEL is not one of the nation (family) names.
Israel is not a “race” of people. Israel is a family name. The family of Jacob who was named Israel by God.
Therefore, Israel was in a sense “hidden” within these 70 nations (families).

From Adam to Jacob/Israel, to Christ, to the fulfilment of the scriptures, from this Adamic race, a remnant must remain 'perfect in their generation.' We do not have the authority to spiritualize this seed line or misrepresent it. I don't think you are, but your comment might be misleading as far as them not being a "race" of people. They are.

Something to notice about God's law.


Ezr 9:1 Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites.
Ezr 9:2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass.


Ezr 10:3 Now therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them, according to the counsel of my lord, and of those that tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law.

Did Christ abolish the law?

[Sissy]

Hey Stan,

Glad you found parts of it useful.

Originally Posted by Sissy
Genesis chapter 10 is sometimes called “The Table of Nations”

“Table of Nations” is just one of those nicknames that a lot of folks use to point to a certain part of the bible.
I know of lots of nicknames, like:
“Hall of Faith” for Hebrews 11.
“Olivet Discourse” for Matthew 24.
But, no, I don’t believe the Holy Spirit ever expressly stated any of these nicknames!
Maybe it’s just a “south” thing to attach a nickname to everything!

They were not names of different races. They were names of different heads of families, for they are ALL descendants of Noah.

Now I don’t know how this could be misleading. All the names are expressly stated to be names of the offspring of the sons of Noah. So, I’m not understanding how you see this as misleading.

[Sissy]

Genesis 10:8 And Cush begot Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

The first place in the bible that mentions any “mighty” man is here:

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

We know how these “mighty” men ended up.

As a side-note:
The serpent seed doctrine uses Genesis 6:4 to claim that these “mighty” men were the offspring of fallen angels and human woman.
Was Nimrod also?
I don’t think so. In order for that to be true, Nimrod would have to be the offspring of his mother having sex with a fallen angel. But we are told who his father is, and who his father is, back to Noah.

But that doesn’t mean that Nimrod did not have the desire to be looked upon as one of those “mighty” men of old. And perhaps received help and power from fallen angels to accomplish his desire to be king of the world.
The bible does not spell this out for us.
But history does.
History shows that Nimrod was the very one who the gods of other cultures referred to.

Scholars identify the ancient Babylonian god, Marduk, as Nimrod himself. And his wife was called Semiramis.
The Egyptians called them Osiris and Isis.
The Greeks called them Adonis and Venus.
The Hindus called them Vishnu and Ushas.
There must a reason that Nimrod was considered a god by so many.
In all these pagan religions, the mother is revered just as much (and maybe more) than her child. The Queen of Heaven. The Mother of God.


There is probably a good reason why the Holy Spirit inspired Moses to insert a little info about Nimrod in the “Table of Nations” in Genesis 10. (had to add that for Stan! )
All the names tell of their lineage, but there is one name that added information is given about.
His name was Nimrod.

[Sissy]

The Story of Phaleg

From Eliphas Levi's Livre des Splendeurs (1894)

When all men were gathered together on the plain of Sennar, under the reign of Nimrod, there was a great architect named Phaleg.

He was the son of Eber, father of the Hebrews, and to protect mankind from a new flood, he drew the plan of a tower.

The first section of the tower was to be round, having twelve doors and seventy-two pillars.

The second was to be square with nine storeys, the third, a triangular spiral with forty-two turns.

The fourth was to be cylindrical with seventy-two storeys.

Seven staircases joined each of the storeys to the others.

The doors of each storey were to be opened and closed by means of mechanisms whose functioning was to be guarded as a hierarchic secret.

All inhabitants of the tower were to have equal civil rights, for those at the top could not live without the assistance of those at the bottom, and those below could not protect themselves from surprise attack without the vigilance of those above.

Such was the plan of Phaleg.

But the workers were disloyal to the great architect.

Secrets from above were revealed to those who worked below, the doors would no longer close, some tried to barricade them, others forced an entry in order to regain the safety of the heights.

And in addition, all wished to work as they liked, without consulting the plans of Phaleg.

Confusion sprang up in their language as it did in their work, and part of the tower collapsed while the rest remained unfinished, for the workers refused to aid one another.

And confusion reigned in their language for there was no more unity in their thought.

Phaleg then understood that he had hoped for too much from men in thinking they would understand one another.

But these men transferred the fault to him and denounced him to Nimrod.

Nimrod condemned him to death.

Phaleg disappeared and it was not known what happened to him.

Nimrod believed he had had him killed and he erected an idol to which he gave the name Phaleg and which gave out oracls in favour of Nimrod's tyranny. But in reality Phaleg had fled into the desert.

He made a trip round the known world as expiation for the too generous error he had committed.

And everywhere he stopped, he built a triangular tabernacle.

One of these monuments was rediscovered in Prussia in 553 in the digs of a salt mine.

Fifteen cubits below ground level a triangular building was found; inside it there was a white marble column on whose base the entire story was written in Hebrew.

Beside this column a tombstone was discovered, covered with dust, but under which lay an agate panel bearing the following epitaph:

Here lie the ashes of our G A of the Tower of Babel...

Adonai has forgiven him the sins of men, for he loved them.

In humiliation he died for them, and thus he has paid for the magnificence of the idols of Nimrod.

Source link:
http://www.hermetic.com/dionysos/phaleg.htm

[Invisible_2_no1]

Originally Posted by Stan

Sissy,
Idolatry was not the only reason God scattered the Israelites.
He did it for their own good. So they would remain a nation of people before Him till the time of the end. Satan is still trying to disrupt the seed line of Jacob so God's word would become of no effect. But God promised to leave a remnant of that seed line so the world wouldn't be destroyed. It is those Israelites who are the light to the nations. They are a specific race of people as amplified by the Apostle Paul through the Holy Spirit in the book to 'the called that were in Rome'.

So in endtimes, isn't satan going to try to disrupt that seed line again? WHO is exactly are the Israelites of today Sissy?

I still struggle with Noah being a "father" of us all...

How did the Negros come from the Chinese?

Or how did an Aboriginee come from the Philippino?

Yes, we have the same body make-up, but as for skin, features and certain characteristics I have yet to see a Clydesdale throw an Appaloosa, if you get my meaning.

If a remnant is left, where is the remnant today Sissy?

[Invisible_2_no1]

Sorry, the above post, thought that quote was Sissy's original, but I was referring to Sissy's reply to this.

[Sissy]

So in endtimes, isn't satan going to try to disrupt that seed line again? WHO is exactly are the Israelites of today Sissy?

I still struggle with Noah being a "father" of us all...

I have not said that Noah is father of us all.
I quoted scripture in Genesis 10 with 70 names, all of which were of Noah.

How did the Negros come from the Chinese?

Or how did an Aboriginee come from the Philippino?

Who said they did?

Yes, we have the same body make-up, but as for skin, features and certain characteristics I have yet to see a Clydesdale throw an Appaloosa, if you get my meaning.

Both Clydedales and Appoaloosas originated from something other than a Clydesdale or an Appoaloosa.
Not sure as to how you see this tying into folks building the tower of Babel.

If a remnant is left, where is the remnant today Sissy?

I could not for certain tell you the name and location of a single one of them.


But hey, rabbit trails are cool too!

[Sissy]

Josephus says of Nimrod:


Now it was Nimrod who excited them to such an affront and contempt of God. He was the grandson of Ham, the son of Noaha bold man, and of great strength of hand. He persuaded them not to ascribe it to God, as if it were through his means they were happy, but to believe that it was their own courage which procured that happiness. He also gradually changed the government into tyrannyseeing no other way of turning men from the fear of God, but to bring them into a constant dependence upon his own power. He also said he would be revenged on God, if he should have a mind to drown the world again; for that he would build a tower too high for the waters to be able to reach! and that he would avenge himself on God for destroying their forefathers!
(Ant. I: iv: 2)

[Invisible_2_no1]

Originally Posted by Sissy

It is this chapter that list the descendants of the sons of Noah.
There are 70 names listed.

The end of the chapter states:
Genesis 10:32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.

Here we have the beginning of separate groups called nations. There are 70 of them.

70 families - 70 nations.
They were not names of different races. They were names of different heads of families, for they are ALL descendants of Noah.


Something to notice in Genesis 10.
ISRAEL is not one of the nation (family) names.
Israel is not a “race” of people. Israel is a family name. The family of Jacob who was named Israel by God.
Therefore, Israel was in a sense “hidden” within these 70 nations (families).
Okay, let's clarify the 70 families part.

From different families is how I take it. I had to re-read your post a few times.

Are we talking different nationalities, different countries and different races...all one race, a mixed race...when you are saying "Israel"?????

[Sissy]

Israel/Jacob is a family name. His kingdom was his 12 sons (family).
He was not his own separate "race".
Remember, he had a twin brother, Esau which was not part of his kingdom.
And besides, Irsrael/Jacob is awhile after Babel before he is even born.

I still don't get what you are asking.

Are you suggesting (as some do) that when God scattered the folks at Babel that He turned them into different races?

Or are you suggesting (as some do) that Ham, the son of Noah, was turned into a black "race" when his son was cursed?

Just trying to get a grip on how you think the 70 names from Noah are somehow different "races".

Tell us what's on your mind.

[Stan]

Glad you found parts of it useful.

The measurements with the temple is a Gem.
Thank you!
Much to think about there.
I hadn't seen that before.

Originally Posted by Sissy

Israel/Jacob is a family name. His kingdom was his 12 sons (family).
He was not his own separate "race".
Remember, he had a twin brother, Esau which was not part of his kingdom.
And besides, Irsrael/Jacob is awhile after Babel before he is even born.

I still don't get what you are asking.

Are you suggesting (as some do) that when God scattered the folks at Babel that He turned them into different races?

Or are you suggesting (as some do) that Ham, the son of Noah, was turned into a black "race" when his son was cursed?

Just trying to get a grip on how you think the 70 names from Noah
are somehow different "races".

Tell us what's on your mind.

Of course they are, Sis. They must be for God's law to even begin to take effect. There is a disticnt difference in the sons of Noah by whom the "nations' came from and the other sons of Noah. It's three fold and only a "theology" could suggest different.

If you begin with a mixed 'race' of people, then there can be no Law of God forbidding the Israelites mixing with different races! But the Word clearly states it is a sin. And sin is the transgression of the Law. The Law remains TILL ALL be fulfilled.

And we are not there yet.

So how can you reconcile that part of the LAW, with what you are proposing?
You can't, unless you want us to believe that God set out, from the get go, to break His own Law to His chosen people, Israel. If that were true, then Satan wins and non of us would be judged by the Word of God.


First, lets esablish this so there is no misunderstanding.

1Ti 4:10
For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach,
because we trust in the living God,
who is the Savior of all men,
especially of those that believe.

That, of course, is through faith in Jesus Christ.
And pertains to anyone who believes and follows His commandments steadfast to the end.

When Christ came, He came but to the lost tribes of Israel.
It was because it was the 'acceptable year of the Lord'
It was the perfect timing for all of what is written.
Everything hinges on God's perfect timing.

In the Old Testament,
bringing in the Kingdom, at this acceptable time, was conditional, even though it was foretold it would come to a day of vengeance.


Zec 6:15
And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD,
and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.
And this shall come to pass,
if
ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.

Many did. But some of the Israelites didn't. And it's they who are accused of crucifying Christ. Even though they were not the ones who actually murdered Him. It was their acts that did, as foreseen in the prophets. And in this we see the perfect plan of God.

But God did separate an Adamic race to whom Christ would come.

To suggest otherwise, is to say He broke His own Law from the get go. Which He did not and could not. It's ludicrous to state otherwise.

Sin is the transgression of the Law.
And as per the above scripture, it was a sin for the Israelites to mingle.
This was the Law given to Moses.

1Jo 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Who was the Law given to?

Rom 9:3
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4
Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
Rom 9:5
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom
as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed forever. Amen.

We cannot overlook what Paul is expressing here. He has singled out the Israelites according to the flesh. Not the spirit.

So there is, in God's divine plan, a 'race' of people destined to fulfill His plan.

Christ came for the Israelites. There is no way we can try and read anything else into that. All the above mentioned is according to the Promise

And God Himself cannot break that oath.

We have those who are elected by the promise, and we have those who are grafted in by faith. But the 'race' of the promise is distinct. It is called , after Adam, the 'adamic race', and we can trace the "Lot of His inheritance" back to Adam.

To question this choice of God is not wise.
This whole chapter of Deut. 32 is to the Israelites.



Deu 32:6
Do ye thus requite (question) the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?
Deu 32:7
Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will show thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.
Deu 32:8
When the most High
divided to the nations their inheritance,
when he separated the sons of Adam,
he set the bounds of the people
according to the number of the children of Israel.
Deu 32:9
For the LORD's portion is his people;
Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

That's a distinct leneage from Adam to the sealed of God in the end times.


So we need to question to understand,
why we think this is?




Deu 32:4
He is the Rock,
His work is perfect:
for all His ways are judgment:
a God of truth
and without iniquity,
just and right is He.